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IFS Geometry? - ASR Issue #?

 
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ripper
200rpm



Joined: 12 Jun 2021
Posts: 244
Location: West Aust.

Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2021 6:43 pm    Post subject: IFS Geometry? - ASR Issue #?

Just been reading Street Rodder (US) Jan 2004 issue, page 103 the article on Mitchell's Mauler. Got to say quite like that 33 coupe, although it's easy to partial to any Ford in that era (yes, words from a Chev guy!).
Anyway, interesting article & not sure what to make of the car entirely but like facets of it a whole bunch, especially the 454 SMALL block. A very powerful little packet. I see the pic of it lighting up on page 106 & think the tyre is about as closer to the wheel arch as it can get.
No big deal, but for a car where big noting is used in reference to engineering & design, they must have overlooked that or not thought enough to hide the problem for the camera or try to fix it.
Interesting is the the chassis is narrower at the front & the track is wider than TCI's normal front ends, the control arms are 3" wider on each side.
6" wider all round.
Love to put it through it's paces. I'm sure it'd be a fun, fast car. Maybe I'm getting funny but the et of 11.98 @ 116.06mph seemed slow for a big powered light car with a "tuned chassis". Well not slow, but thought it might be just a tad quicker than that. However more than respectable and awesome compared to my old ute.
Anyway, leads me to 2 questions...

1] Looking at the wider control arms, just wondering what effect this would have on geometry & therefore handling? Any/None?

2] I recall an issue of Australian Street Rodding (I think) which had some diagrams of commonly used independent front ends & their handling characteristics when cornering. Which issue was it, cos I can't find it?

I recall (well I think) it had HT-K-G front end, L300 & some other IFS & possibly the Mustang II. The Mustang came out on top I think. What's got me wondering is whether the earlier Cortina front ends were similar, this might be mentioned in the article cos I do recall a conversation with other rodders at the time & whether or not the Cortina front end was a rough copy of a Mustang II or not. Any thoughts?

I have heard two well placed rodders speak of one "off the shelf front end" & question it's geometry & handling performance whilst cornering.
They were concerned one of the shiney off-the-shelf units might only be as good, possibly worse than a HT.
Nope ain't gunna mention the front end, but wondering anyone else has seen a IFS that works better than the pack.
Of course they prolly all have limitations & the Jag IFS is popular, but the L300 is still plentiful but if one is peaking above the others, be good to know.
My pickup project is using a HJ front end, but it won't be F1-ing into corners...

Meanwhile I'll scour thru my copies of ASR & check again, but it's imcomplete since a few were borrowed.
No one takes Mum's old New Idea mags...why is that?
Cheers
ripper
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Pep
600RPM



Joined: 14 Jun 2021
Posts: 624
Location: Georges Hall, NSW

Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2021 8:56 pm    Post subject:

Just a guess on wider track would seem to better in the handling department especially for an old car with a high centre of gravity. As long as everything else is suited...spring rate, wishbones. As far as the better donor IFS...well again it would depend on the set up, car, engine placement, spring rate...and a lot of other stuff. I would have thought the L300 is closer related to the M2 IFS and would perform better than the Holden...but again its just my opinion. I don't recall the article in ASR but if you can tell what year it was then I'll look back....PeterR might jump in on this and give a expert comment...I just hope I can get a grip on it
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Pep
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ripper
200rpm



Joined: 12 Jun 2021
Posts: 244
Location: West Aust.

Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2021 8:16 am    Post subject:

hiya pep, yeah dunno what year mate...searched & searched & wondering if I was dreaming now.
I'd guess it was in the last 5 years at a stab...I'll have a deep dig & go thru them, but just wondering was it the ASRF Newsletter...my guess is no that it was ASR.

One of them things that bug you y'know...like I'll be happier that I found regardless whats in it haha
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Jimmy B
Rookie


Joined: 01 Feb 2021
Posts: 32
Location: Tweed Valley, NSW, Australia

Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2021 9:00 am    Post subject:

ripper, There was a 1/2 page sidebar article in ASR 105 Nov/Dec '95 (with Stewart Campbell's '29 Dodge roadster on cover) accompanying the U.S Street Rod
Nationals coverage pg26. It goes through the different frontends that are used. Generally the Mustang 2 frontend is the best as it has more tyre contact with the road apparently TE/TF cortina is very similar tall stub axles
this is meant to be the best setup with top control arm going up hill towards tyre (Indycar use same principle for there frontends). HR/HG hasn't got the desirable geometry for tyre contact, not as good as some of the other frontends out there.
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ripper
200rpm



Joined: 12 Jun 2021
Posts: 244
Location: West Aust.

Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2021 2:04 pm    Post subject:

well give that man a cigar!!!

You are dead right JimmyB, Good job man!
Cheers for that.
Quite an eye opener & I remember first reading that thinking who'd be the first to either fabricate or import Mustang II type front ends for rods.
Seemed obvious & predictable...this is why I'm a cow cockie & not a fortune teller or business advisor haha!

Pity the L300 wasn't amongst them.
My dad has a JBA Falcon kit car, it uses Cortina front end & yeah, it handles pretty darn good but dunno if it's TE/TF Cortina.
Looks like the lengthing of the control arms would make a huge difference, even if you lengthen both upper & lower the same amount, however biggest changes would be if you just lengthened just one or the other...want some nice n strong material.

Thanks Jimmy!
Had I gone back 2 more years I woulda found it...seemed I thought it was a recent issue...where'd all them years go???
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Pep
600RPM



Joined: 14 Jun 2021
Posts: 624
Location: Georges Hall, NSW

Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2021 2:19 pm    Post subject:

ripper wrote:
well give that man a cigar!!!

You are dead right JimmyB, Good job man!
Cheers for that.
Quite an eye opener & I remember first reading that thinking who'd be the first to either fabricate or import Mustang II type front ends for rods.
Seemed obvious & predictable...this is why I'm a cow cockie & not a fortune teller or business advisor haha!

Pity the L300 wasn't amongst them.
My dad has a JBA Falcon kit car, it uses Cortina front end & yeah, it handles pretty darn good but dunno if it's TE/TF Cortina.
Looks like the lengthing of the control arms would make a huge difference, even if you lengthen both upper & lower the same amount, however biggest changes would be if you just lengthened just one or the other...want some nice n strong material.

Thanks Jimmy!
Had I gone back 2 more years I woulda found it...seemed I thought it was a recent issue...where'd all them years go???


I didn't think anyone had thought about the L300 back then....but maybe they did. I know the TD Cortina was a bolt in IFS but the TE and TF were not..There is little similarity between the TD and TE/TF. The TD was a mongrel thing and the TE and TF were more like the Falcon.
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Pep
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Jimmy B
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Joined: 01 Feb 2021
Posts: 32
Location: Tweed Valley, NSW, Australia

Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2021 3:49 pm    Post subject:

ripper, Glad to be of help. I know the basics but with extending the cotrol arms and making top arm longer like Mustang 2 & Cortina that camber angle during suspension movement is less and therefore suspension arch is greater & body rolls into corners instead of out like HR HG frontends would do which has a tighter suspension arch so body rolls to the outside instead of into corners. I'm open to corrections on this.

ripper wrote:
Quote:
I see the pic of it lighting up on page 106 & think the tyre is about as closer to the wheel arch as it can get.

In America stance is everything. I'd say he is going into a lefthand corner while he's bagging it up so his car is scrubing out. That's America.

Quadra Deuce had longer control arms like an Indycar or F1 car but alot of American Street Rodders Didn't take too well to the longer control arms & the wider track it created so when Troy Trepanier rebuilt it a couple of years back he fabricated a more conventional Frontend (it is 4 wheel drive so they used custom or cyclone front stub axles can't remember.
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Last edited by Jimmy B on Wed Feb 18, 2021 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total
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bcal
Cruisin



Joined: 04 Feb 2021
Posts: 373
Location: The Shire, Sydney

Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2021 6:22 pm    Post subject:

I remember a yanky article from the mid eighties where they did some pretty comprehensive handling comparisons between a low slung track T with IFS and a fully fendered 34 coupe with 4 bar and beam axle.
In the initial driving tests the T felt quicker but it was on the skid pan that the truth was revealed.
And guess which car won hands down? The Coupe

I guess the moral of the story was, no matter what type of FE set up you have it needs to be set up correctly and the dynamics of the car need to work with it. What killed the handling of the track T was that the great lump of cast iron up front gave it poor balance.

The other handling killer we should consider is the chassis. Because most of us build our cars on what amounts to nothing more than a glorified bed frame then it doesn't matter how good the FE is as you're never going to achieve handling as good as a car with a more rigid structure like a space frame.

I've often wondered how you would go lowering the inner pivot point on the upper control arm of the HK-G front ends. They did this on the LX Torana when it went to RTS. Gives better camber angles on roll. I've seen this done on the earlier LH series. I also wonder if a similar effect occurs when the L300 spring tower is shortened so as to get it under a Model A's guards? Has anyone ever looked the effects on geometry when modifying the L300?

He's some rule of thumb figures that I used when designing my FE.
Make the lower control arm lengths about 1/4 of the distance between the lower ball joints.
The upper arms should be around 3/4 the length of the lower arms.
The lower arms should be level with the ground at normal ride height.
Angle the lower arms so that a roll center of about 50 to 70 mm is achieved.
Got this from an old rod mag in the eighties. Not sure if the figures are optimal but they sure seem to work on my car.

Failing that. I think it was the designer of the original lotus clubman (Chapman?) that said you can make anything handle well if the springs are heavy enough.
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snooze
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Joined: 06 Nov 2020
Posts: 81
Location: Canberra

Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2021 8:42 pm    Post subject:

Hi Ripper
What is the point of me doing my Hot Rod Index web site if Cow Cockies like you aren't gonna use it. If you go to the ASR Pages you never know what you will find. I suppose you are now going to try and embarrass me by saying you have already been there and couldn't find anything.
www.hotrodindex.150m.com

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ripper
200rpm



Joined: 12 Jun 2021
Posts: 244
Location: West Aust.

Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2021 11:07 pm    Post subject:

well of course I didn't want to know about IFS Snooze, it was my cunning rouse to draw you out & promote the handy service on your website...

now the truth...

clean forgot till after the answer came thru, but to be honest I prolly wouldn't have spotted it cos I truly thought it was last 5 years at the very most, stunned me it was longer!!!

But then again went to a 20 year school reunion last year & I thought that was just 5 years ago too!

I'm only going to continue to go while I'm skinnier than 50% of them (easy) and got more hair that's less grey than most...so far so good!

Interesting one guy, who was body builder type 10 years ago looks a lot like a Bhudda now.
Very re-assuring! haha

But just the same Snooze, that feature on your site has been very handy to me in the past & I know it wil again in the future.
I appreciate you putting it there...

Trouble is it's just the tool for those of us with minds like sieves...if we remember its there
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