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Hey Carps...You know anything about this

 
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Pep
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Joined: 14 Jun 2021
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Location: Georges Hall, NSW

Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 4:50 pm    Post subject: Hey Carps...You know anything about this

I just finished reading an article that is very interesting. Any truth in this..especially the admission by the Toyota guru.

http://carpoint.ninemsn.com.au/news/blankpopup.asp?ID=5940
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bcal
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Joined: 04 Feb 2021
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Location: The Shire, Sydney

Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:52 pm    Post subject:

Carpoint wrote:
Toyota and Holden are expected to make a formal announcement in a special signing ceremony on April 1 on the top of the Westgate Bridge

Sounds like an April fools joke to me pep.

If it's true I hope they don't go down the road of badge engineering like Lexan and Apollo.
Holdota maybe
or Toyden
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Carps
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Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:20 pm    Post subject:

Been there done that, crossed it off the list!
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AutoCOL
Just Idling



Joined: 12 Jun 2021
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Location: Melbourne

Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:40 pm    Post subject:

i doubt carps would go for that!!!

i've got a bit of a question about the whole idea, however. back when holden and toyota traded the VN (for the lexcen) and the camry (for the apollo), what was the consumer reaction like?

in 1990 i was 11, so i don't really recall.

i just can't fathom that either company would be happy (in today's market) to have the commodore driving around with two different badges on it, with nary a grille treatment and logo-switch to differentiate the two? particularly given that the commodore and its derivates is GM's "identity" car. was it an experiment gone horribly wrong? would (or do) any car companies have such blatant badge switching now?

all i can think of is ford an mazda light trucks, but i don't know if they're still as similar as they were when i had a bravo in the late 90's...
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Dave
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Joined: 13 Jun 2021
Posts: 240
Location: Castlemaine, Victoria

Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:01 pm    Post subject:

I think BCal got it right with his quote from the Carpoint Site. Read the date carefully! Can anyone out there remember a current affairs show telling everyone the Sydney Opera House was sinking into the Harbour by about a cm each year and 'caught' the expert divers on camera who of course would not comment and had a team of engineering experts predicting how long it would take before it was partially submerged. Every year around that date some magazine or paper beats up a ripper story and must laugh themsleves stupid when it is picked up by the opposition papers/magazines as genuine!

There must be some good April 1st stories out there? I do recall someone's 32 Ford Coupe being advertised one year in 'The Age' around about that date for a very cheap price. Needless to say the phone started ringing almost as soon as the paper came off the press (back then people used to drive into Spencer Street at one a.m. to get the paper and the bargains first!) and apparently never stopped all weekend. Not sure if the culprits were ever found!
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Mr Cool
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Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:02 am    Post subject:

Carpoint also wrote:
CarPoint understands the location was chosen because it is exactly half way between Holden's home at Fishermen's Bend and Toyota's Altona manufacturing plant.


bcal wrote:
Sounds like an April fools joke to me pep.


Further evidence that its all crap. The bridge is much closer to Fishermans bend than Altona. Millers road would be about half way, and thats about 3 or 4 k's away. I agree, its all an elaborate gag.
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Pep
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Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:19 am    Post subject:

Thats the reaction I expected...can't fool you guys....the clue to me was the guru..the tea lady. Up until then I was sucked in...
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Carps
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Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:53 pm    Post subject:

AutoCOL wrote:
i doubt carps would go for that!!!

Refer to my comment above for confirmation.

Quote:
i've got a bit of a question about the whole idea, however. back when holden and toyota traded the VN (for the lexcen) and the camry (for the apollo), what was the consumer reaction like?
in 1990 i was 11, so i don't really recall.

That's OK I was there for the duration and remember it well.

Fact is, Holden struggled to sell the Apollo and Nova in any sort of volume since by that time they had well and truly become 'The Commodore car Company' which is thier problem today. Astra is a pretty good package and they do OK numbers but it's still not the leader of it's segment despite having more variants than any other brand. Vectra is a far better car than any commodore with comparable interior space and way better driving dynamics, yet it doesn't sell in numbers that I'd think make it a sustainable proposition. And of course it's priced wrong for it's market segment, but pricing it lower might take volume from Commodore so GMHA I think have a real conundrum there. Of course they have the same problem to deal with in Commodore Ute and Rodeo both fighting for share in the same segment, and that's probably why HiLux despite it's age is still king of the yoots. But i digress.

During the last decade of the last century Toyota were market leaders for seven of the ten years thanks to our ability to sell the Holden built product. Holden struggled to sell the front drivers because of the companies one car structure.

On the other hand Toyota sold so many Lexcen's that it made us market leader for the period we were selling them. However, it created problems that we struggled to deal with and ultimately lead to the demise of the arrangement. Biggest issue was Toyota customers expected more than they got and the poor quality durability and reliability meant more warranty issues than the system and people could cope with. Secondly, GMHA had supply problems and couldn't deliver all the Lexcen's that were being sold meaning Toyota customers had to wait much longer for a Toyota badged Holden than had they bought a Holden badged Holden. GMHA had no such issue with Apollo or Nova and in fact quite the opposite. Toyota had no problems with supply because we moved Corolla production from Port Melbourne into the defunct holden plant at Dandenong, which gave us enourmous capacity. And we had no problems selling any cars GMHA didn't want, which of course helped our market leadership position even more.


Quote:
i just can't fathom that either company would be happy (in today's market) to have the commodore driving around with two different badges on it, with nary a grille treatment and logo-switch to differentiate the two?

Back then it was about the survival of the local industry as the then Labour Goovernment's 'Button Plan' was creating the mythical 'Level Playing Field' and sorting out who would survive as a local manuafacturer and who would not. When I was 11, the Australian motor industry was in fact bigger than japans and exported to more countries than Japan. Ford, GM Holden, American Motors, Standard, Triumph, Morris, Austin., Wolsely, MG, Volkswagen, Renault, Mercedes Benz, Volv, Datsun, Jaguar, and a few more were all built here. Ford localy built lineup consisted of Zephyr, Falcon, Galaxie and Anglia, Holden's included Vauxhall, Chevrolet and Pontiac and Isuzu Bellett. Torana came later based on the Vauxhaul body.

Quote:
particularly given that the commodore and its derivates is GM's "identity" car. was it an experiment gone horribly wrong?

Not really, in fact there's a lot of what they learned from Toyota been incorporated into later Holdens and helped make them a better car.

Of course many of Holden's 'True Believers' would argue on that score but some of us actually know the facts.

Quote:
would (or do) any car companies have such blatant badge switching now?

Toyota's joint venture with GM in the US is one of the most successful ever and they build the Chevroolet Nova and Pontiac Sunbird on two different Toyota platforms all of which are sold by their respective netowrks. The NUMMI (New United Motor Manufacturing Industries) plant is jointly operated by Toyota and GM and is about 20 years into it's life of building dual makes on the same platforms.

Quote:
all i can think of is ford an mazda light trucks, but i don't know if they're still as similar as they were when i had a bravo in the late 90's...

Ford is the major shareholder in Mazda, thus they have built many shared cars like the Mazda 323 Ford Laser and the Ford Telstar/Mazda 626 as well as the light commercials. The infamous Ford Capri convertible was designed and built in Australia using Mazda 323 platform and drivetrain.

Look closely at a Hino truck and compare it to a Toyota Dyna and they are identical twins, made in the same plants. Strangely the build plate on your Toyota Tarago also says it was built by Hino Motors. Of course Hino is a wholy owned subsidiary of Toyota Motor Corporation as is Daihatsu. Which I guess explains why the Daihatsu Sirion appears to share many mechanical componets with the Toyota Echo, which in turn shares them with the still built in Japan Toyota Starlet. Heck even the part numbers are the same for these cars. Ever wonder why the S Type Jaguar looks so much like a Falcon? Word is that the Jag tooling was made in Australia whilst the Falcon body tooling was made in Asia at the same time. Look under the hoods and under the bumpers and you'll be amazed at the similarities. Why does the new Saab look like a Holden Vectra? Who owns Saab? Why do the new Volvos seem to have lots of Ford and Jaguar parts?

Or how about the Porsche Ceyanne and Volkwagen Touareg? I have one of each parked outside my office, other than the badges, front bumper/grille and the finish on some interior trim and mouldings, they are identical vehicles. Why do the midsize Volkswagens seem to be the same shape as similar sized audi models? Because they are the same cars behind the badges.

I could go on, but I think you get the picture....
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Carps
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Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:05 pm    Post subject:

Pep wrote:
Thats the reaction I expected...can't fool you guys....the clue to me was the guru..

Hey! That's what the people here call me!

Quote:
the tea lady. Up until then I was sucked in...

She is standing by my desk as I type this, pouring my afternoon cappucino. AND.. she'll gladly tell anybody she knows more about this stuff than even 'The guru'.
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peddro
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Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:46 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Isuzu Bellett


AHA! So that's who made that little rally looking thing I was beside in traffic up on Bell St the other night. Had a real Alfa look about it.


I think the VN/Lexcen rates up with the P76 as one of the ugliest things to come from an Australian design studio (ignoring the Opel origination), hence my largely unpublicised campaign to have all VN Commodores recalled, crushed and their owners memories surgically altered to remove any knowledge of their existence.
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Carps
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Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 11:48 pm    Post subject:

Mr Cool wrote:
Further evidence that its all crap. The bridge is much closer to Fishermans bend than Altona. Millers road would be about half way, and thats about 3 or 4 k's away. I agree, its all an elaborate gag.


Besides, Holden's Corporate HQ is in Salmon St Port Melbourne and Toyota's Corporate HQ is only one street over in the opposite direction to the bridge.

GMHA's engine plant is the only thing they have at Fisherman's Bend.
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Mr Cool
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Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:24 pm    Post subject:

Carps wrote:
Besides, Holden's Corporate HQ is in Salmon St Port Melbourne and Toyota's Corporate HQ is only one street over in the opposite direction to the bridge.

GMHA's engine plant is the only thing they have at Fisherman's Bend.

Carpoint wrote:
CarPoint understands the location was chosen because it is exactly half way between Holden's home at Fishermen's Bend and Toyota's Altona manufacturing plant.

If you read my post and/or the article, you'll see that this is what I based my location on, not Corporate HQ. So lets just settle on that fact I'm right, ok Carps.
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Carps
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 9:49 am    Post subject:

And I'm just advising that the facts prove the innacuracy of the story and show that it's big mountain of bullstuff.

Sad thing is the number of people in the industry who read and actually believed it. Shows the power of the press. And they wonder why I get so pissed when they present this sort of stuff as real news with the intention that people will believe it.
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Outback
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Joined: 06 Mar 2021
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Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 12:15 am    Post subject:

It makes you wonder if they were just trying to find out how gullable people are, and how much of the other stuff is stretched to suit themselves

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Carps
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Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:16 am    Post subject:

Like the story a few weeks back that Toyota was going to close it's local plant probably putting over 20,000 Australians out of work, because of a 1 billion dollar tax bill.

Caused a days lost production and untold stress on many people and families for no reason other than some dopey journo was having a bad hair day and decided to rewrite a story that's nearly ten years old and was resolved in the Australian courts seven years ago.

Oh, and the original ammount dsiputed by the tax office was not even remotely near that figure but marginally more than the value of the days production we lost.
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